Why every progressive American (and most progressive Europeans) NEED to read the bible
Because otherwise, you might think that the person wielding this sign has some kind of argument. In actuality, the verses they quote have NOTHING to do with gay marriage. Read it. READ IT! Okay, you're still reading this post in stead, but really, you should READ IT. Jesus is answering a very specific question on divorce. "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?".
So, if these people want to ban divorce, they can quote Jesus here. Although, even then, they'ld really be a bit selective. Because Jesus says that you can divorce for reason of "unchastity". So, none of that "no fault" stuff, okay. So if these people want to ban divorce, except in case of adultery, they can quote Jesus. Although, even then, they're still not quite right. Because Jesus breaks down under questioning by his disciples (Matthew 19:10-12). Because the disciples thought that if you can't get a divorce just for fun, getting married would just not be worth it. So Jesus says that "Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only to those to whom it is given." That, my friends, means that if you, personally, accept the teachings of Jesus, you can't get a divorce (except in case of adultery (of your partner, you twit)). If you can't accept these teachings, more's the pity. Jesus does not condemn those who do not follow this path. In particular, he says that some people aren't born to be married (born "eunuchs"), a reference to those born gay, impotent or terminally nerdy. He does not advocate gay sex, or gay marriage, which would have been unthinkable in those times, but does say that some people are just born different, which has to be accepted. This was considerably more advanced than the times....
So, read the bible. If those who oppose gay marriage quote this passage, ask them whether they know what it is about. If they do know that this passage is about divorce, ask them whether they know Jesus' position on lying... Then ask them their position on divorce, and whether they know what Jesus DID say about gay marriage...
posted by Endorendil at 17:18
3 Comments:
Your post is genius (I just posted about exactly the same thing :)
Very true. You need to know your adversary. Ignorance is defeat.
"He does not advocate gay sex, or gay marriage, which would have been unthinkable in those times, but does say that some people are just born different, which has to be accepted. This was considerably more advanced than the times..."
Hm, why'd ya think they crucified him!
Seriously, you're right about reading the bible, but one lesson I've learned from living in the Land of Mormon is that even if you have a valid point, you will NEVER win a religious argument with someone who's really evangelical, because they don't actually base their arguments on anything logical. You get to a point where you're saying "yes, but Jesus said such-and-such" and you're met with a blank wall - either you're "misreading the scriptures" and being misled by Satan, or the person you're arguing with just flat doesn't comprehend what you're trying to say. Sometimes both. [My mother tried to evangelize me for a decade and a half. Does it show?]
Lukku, I agree that you won't win the argument, but you can achieve two major things in the debate:
1) Sow doubt in the minds of strongly religious people about what their leaders tell them. Make them question the issue themselves. You won't win the hard-core opponents over, but you can get the moderates on the fence.
2) Point out that you are not willing to cede Jesus to their side. Make sure that they don't see this as an issue of god-loving christians (and muslims) versus heathens.
Aside from that, it is crucial that progressives don't accept this argument either. If we believe that religion is the problem, we may be tempted to try and fight it. That is futile and counterproductive. It is that kind of approach that has gotten the Republicans where they are now...
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